The Sunday Mail
Zimbabwe celebrates 41 years of Independence today, with the Second Republic led by President Mnangagwa having made commendable efforts to fulfil the gains of Uhuru. The Sunday Mail Editor Victoria Ruzvidzo and ZBC’s Merit Munzwembiri interview the President to mark this special day.
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Q: Good day, Your Excellency, and thank you very much for affording us this opportunity to have a sit-down with you on the special occasion where we are celebrating Zimbabwe’s Independence. The Independence celebrations are coming at a time when the world and Zimbabwe are faced with a deadly pandemic — the coronavirus — that has taken away the liberties and freedoms of citizens the world over. Your Government is obviously making huge strides to try and curtail this virus. But on the backdrop of this kind of a virus, what will be your message to the nation on the eve of Zimbabwe’s Independence on April 18?
A: Well, let me thank you for this opportunity to discuss about our country and in particular the 41st anniversary of our Independence. You are right that this anniversary has come at a time when we are going through a pandemic which has raised havoc throughout the world. Zimbabwe has not been spared by the Covid-19.
However, through our own strides in handling the pandemic and under the conditions of sanctions, as Zimbabwe we are very much disadvantaged compared to other countries with regard to the capacity the Government has to mitigate against the pandemic. We have done our best under the circumstances, drawing on our own resources and the cooperation of our people. As you are aware, many countries have received grants to fight this pandemic. Other countries have received billions to fight the pandemic; others have received not less than US$300 million to fight the pandemic.
But because of the sanctions imposed on us, we have realised that we are on our own and we had to take measures. First, we think it is the primary duty of Government to protect lives, but in the process, this impacts on the economy. So, we are happy that since February last year, it is now a year since the pandemic first affected Zimbabwe. We have not done badly in terms of mitigating against its spread, its infections.
Currently we are at around 36 000; more than 36 000 people have been infected by the pandemic and less than 2 000 have lost their lives as a result of the pandemic. We have, of course, imposed very harsh measures, which I am aware that not everybody agrees with the measures that I have taken, but they have been taken in the interest of preservation of life.
Q: Indeed, Your Excellency, as you have intimated you have led from the front. But many are curious to know where is this pot of gold? Where others have been getting assistance — multilateral or bilateral — Zimbabwe has had to look inside, where are the resources coming from?
A: There is the World Health Fund where many countries have been supported from, and the Word Bank has done a lot, the IMF has done a lot, disbursing millions of dollars to countries. But we have not received any funding from the World Bank or from the IMF. As you are aware, they have imposed sanctions on us. We have, however, from our own domestic resources managed to raise up to now in excess of US$100 million and we are happy that some of the friendly countries, who have remained friendly throughout this period of isolation, have responded positively to our requests for support.
And these are countries such as China, India and Russia; to some extent, the United Kingdom, which has indicated that they will support us but that support has not yet come. We have received some donations and grants from India and China. But on the basis of our own resources, we have begun receiving vaccines from China, which we have paid for and we are determined to procure enough to cover the herd immunity which is about eight-plus million people of our nation.
Q: You raised a pertinent point, Your Excellency, when you said there are continued sanctions on Zimbabwe. But we have seen the Second Republic pursuing the re-engagement and engagement thrust, is it viable and worth pursuing in view of what you have just said?
A: The philosophy which we adopted as the Second Republic, that of engagement and re-engagement, is premised on the fact that we don’t seek enemies: We seek friends, and we are saying we would like the rest of the international community to be friendly to us.
We are friendly to all, except those who may not accept us, but still we say to them there is no need for such hostility or imposition of sanctions, we would want to be friends to all. Our policy of engagement and re-engagement is bearing fruit. To date, the relations between Zimbabwe and the EU have drastically improved. Most of the sanctions and measures imposed by the EU have been removed and we have begun dialogue and cooperation both at political level and trade and economic cooperation with several countries of the EU. Countries like France, Germany, Belgium, Italy and Spain, we are already having discussions and cooperation since the onset of the Second Republic.
Of course, we still have countries like the United Kingdom and the United States of America who still continue to insist on the imposition of these sanctions. But of course they have their surrogates in Zimbabwe who are persuading them to continue to impose sanctions on Zimbabwe for reasons best known to themselves, who want the people of Zimbabwe to suffer. Perhaps to ride on the suffering of the people of Zimbabwe for them to come to office. But we shall continue to pursue the policy that we would want to be a friend of everybody and enemy of none.
Q: You have mentioned a few challenges with regard to the re-engagement policy. From your perspective, Your Excellency, how much ground do you hope to cover this year barring the Covid-19 restrictions in terms of travel and other things?
A: Well, Covid-19 has had its own impact and at the end of the day the travelling which would have happened had there been no Covid-19 would be very different. It is now very difficult to travel. I am sure you are aware that airlines worldwide have been grounded. Countries like the United Kingdom have a list of countries which have been banned from travelling there. The same with other big countries. As a result of this period, we continue, of course, to pursue diplomatically the issue of engaging and explaining that we mean no harm to anybody.
The people of Zimbabwe are peaceful, we seek harmony, we seek peace, we seek unity and we seek progress and we seek cooperation and integration freely into the community of nations.
Q: Taking you back to Independence, Your Excellency, we are enjoying the fruits of Independence, the fruits of the liberation struggle which did not come on a silver platter. And I must say you were one of the people who were not going to enjoy this day as a dark cloud hung over you when you were sentenced to death in 1964. May you please explain to us what exactly transpired and how you escaped?
A: No, I was sentenced on the 7th of January 1965. Well, the struggle for Independence is a long road which our people have travelled. Initially, it’s already known, our leaders then thought we could achieve one man, one vote through political agitation. But there came a time when everybody in the leadership realised that one man, one vote could not be achieved through political agitation. We came to appreciate that the oppressors could only understand the language of the gun because it was the same language they used to suppress our own forefathers in order to colonise this country.
It was at that stage, 1961 and 62, that our leaders began recruiting us. As for myself, I went in 1962 up to 64 when I then graduated from the military academy in China. Then we began the armed struggle.
It was not easy and we made many mistakes, but as we went on, those who came after us avoided the same mistakes which we ourselves committed. We were the first freedom fighters who were trained either in China and Egypt. I was sentenced to death on that date, the 7th of January, because I had blown a train in Fort Victoria (Masvingo). What happened was me and a colleague of mine, Mathew Malowa, he is late now, there was going to be the OAU Liberation Committee which was meeting to discuss the Southern Rhodesia situation.
And then our leaders — Sithole, VaMugabe, the Maliangas, Nkala and so on, they were at Kwekwe prison — sent a letter through the late Michael Mawema to us who were in the field. We were very few trained people in the country, I think there were only six or seven, that we needed to do something to show that Zanu was active militarily in the country. So the immediate target which was available to us was the train in Fort Victoria.
And then after that, I had the duty with my colleagues who were operating in the country to communicate this to the late chairman Chitepo in Lusaka (Zambia). But our communication had to go through Malawi. There was someone called Mawere who was based in Malawi then, and that is where we sent our messages, and from Malawi the messages would go to Lusaka to chairman Chitepo. So, we were three, we came to Salisbury (Harare) somewhere near Highfield Police Station.
Micheal Mawema had a house there. We didn’t know he was a sell-out. We went to his house.
Fortunately, we took precautions, two of my colleagues remained in what we now call the Highfield Grounds out there in a broken down motor vehicle and I as leader went to Michael Mawema’s house to brief him and give our report so that he could take it across to Mawere in Malawi. So when I arrived there I found him. There were drinks there and some nurses from pa Gomo (Sally Mugabe Central Hospital) they were drinking there.
So I did what I did; that is for another day. Then I locked the door, kicked out all these nurses out and sat down to discuss with Michael Mawema. Then the next morning we had agreed that he should travel to Marandelas (Marondera), where he was going to meet with a colleague, who is also late, Chigaba, who was operating in Marandelas, because there were certain issues and materials that we wanted.
So in the morning he left and I was busy writing my report to Chitepo. When he left he didn’t go to Marandelas, he went to the police station to say, “the Emmerson you are looking for is in my house.” So as I was busy writing my report, the police kicked the door and came in led by Bradshow, Smith and Inspector Beans, three whites who broke the door.
They said, “Emmerson, we have got you now, you are done.” Then, I was taken to Salisbury Central Prison. Well, I can’t go through the torture I went through. But I went through such torture which resulted in the death of Alexander Mashaira. He was one of the recruits we were working with who got captured. But when we went to Salisbury Central Police Station, there was butcher house — A20.
It is still there but of course the name is out now. If you go Harare Central Police Station, there is a bungalow small house to the western side, there is a service station here that is where the torture house was; where then you were hanged. If you can imagine a butchery. In a butchery there are those poles where you hang carcases. So they put leg irons on your legs and you were hooked there and then you hang with your head down. Then I still had those three guys, the three whites and several other blacks who were standing there.
They produced a note book and they said this note book is new, here is a new ballpoint pen, what we write here is new.
So someone hits you, that is the black guy now, because you are hanging, he hits you from this side, then you would go wurrrrrrrrrr across the room hanging with your head down, they would hit you this way. But of course then you would go unconscious and they would take you down. The other torture is — I am pleased you can’t look down my feet — mbiradzakondo. I don’t know whether you know it, where they tie you from here and put a stick around here then they beat under your feet and then when your feet are brown they take those pins that you use to pin papers on the wall. They put pins under your feet then they raise you down so that the pins can go in and blood starts coming out.
Anyhow, it was during that process that Alexander Mashaira died. Well, I survived that one.
Q: Was it because of the strong will inside you that you survived and someone died?
A: Well, he had not trained. I had come from China. I had gone through serious training.
Q: So it became a mind game?
A: Yeah, it’s a mind game. For instance, they were so stupid. One of the things, when they said, it was not easy to get information from me. The central police station, second floor, we went there then these three white fellows with two black guys brought a TNT slab, it’s an explosive, clipped a blasting cap on a fuse, then they opened the window. This room, you are facing Railway Avenue then, now it’s Kenneth Kaunda.
They opened the window facing Railway Avenue then. And then they said “what is this?” I said, “I don’t know,” but I knew it was a TNT slab; So it became psychological. So they put the blasting cap into the TNT and the fuse was long then they lit the fuse. It goes Pfuuuuuu, it explodes. But because of the size of the TNT, I knew that we would all die and they opened the window so that as the fuse burned I would throw it through the window. And if I did, they would know that it was an explosive.
So I held it, of course I was sweating, but I just held it. When it was near to being ignited, one of them jumped and pulled it and threw it out the window, but in the process hit his head on the wall and they came to the conclusion that I didn’t know what it was. They said this guy is innocent.
Q: Did this help, Your Excellency, in the reprieve that eventually came?
A: No. It was my age. At the time the age of majority was 21 and at the time when I went for military training I was 19. So I committed my crime at the time I went for military training. The time I was tried I was already 21, but the commission of crime was when I was 19. So I was saved by age because I was under age at the time I committed the crime they were charging me of.
Q: You speak about this particular torture moment with so much ease now, but I would want to know. How was the feeling when you eventually got the reprieve? How did you feel?
A: When I was sentenced to 10 years. I felt good.
Q: You felt good?
A: Yeah! When I was sentenced to death. If you go to Salisbury Central Prison, we call it Harare Central Prison now, ku Karingoringo, if you enter the main gate to your left, there are the cells for the condemned prisoners. I was in room number two. Right, so there is a room there where, when people hang they go upstairs, they were hanging people there every Tuesday. So there is a sound of the machine which is used for hanging. Then a priest comes and prays for you, but they are standing at a place, they are very cruel. It’s the same prisoners. When I was sentenced for 10 years, I was put to the tailor shop, where I would prepare gowns for my colleagues to be hanged.
So you see, there the machine sounds wuuuuuuuuu for about 40 minutes or so before they hang you. You were hanged in the open, then they would drop you. By the time you reach down there, your neck it is quite low near the ground. Your neck is quite long and on the side here, this is where your cells are.
There was Father Swift from the Roman Catholic Church who used to pray and Father Riberio who was a young priest at the time, they would do their prayers. They would put you in the wheelbarrow. There is a corridor, there is chapel. You would go through the corridor at the back there and the prisoners dig the grave for you and will be buried there, then they plant lawn and irrigate.
Q: So looking at all this, Your Excellency, would you say it was worth the while as we celebrate our 41st Independence?
A: I can assure you that you, the young generation, do not appreciate this Independence to the same degree as we do; we ourselves who went through all these things. In fact, I say this because it affects me. Ask me about something else.
Q: At Independence, you came in as the Minister of State in the then Prime Minister’s Office; yes, its 41 years now but we want to understand General Peter Walls. What was really happening behind the scenes? What is the story? How did he leave?
A: General Peter Walls became very comfortable just before the Prime Minister-elect became the substantive Prime Minister. We gathered intelligence that there was going to be a coup so that the inauguration did not proceed led by General Walls and his team in the Rhodesian army. How did we know about that?
What was happening is that at KGVI barracks then, General Peter Walls was chairman of the Operations Command. They would seat there from the level of colonel upwards, they would sit, discussing what to do. But being English and white people they drink tea and they were served by blacks. So we made sure we recruited our intelligence. So we recruited the blacks who were serving them tea.
As they were serving them tea the generals continued to discuss what they were going to do and nearby the teaboy would come and report what they were doing. So, when I briefed my boss, former President Mugabe, he said, “what do we do Emmerson?”
Initially, if you remember – I don’t think you had grown up — me and Rex (General Mujuru) smuggled former President Mugabe out of the country to Maputo and Nyerere.
It was because the coup was very imminent. And when we removed him then they said it was no use to proceed (with the coup) when the head of the revolution was outside the country. He didn’t know that it was for his own security. He went to Maputo and he proceeded to go and report the situation to President (Samora) Machel and to (Julius) Nyerere in Tanzania, Maputo, Tanzania and back. It took two days.
When he came back, we had made a strategy. We had agreed with the former President Mugabe who was Prime Minister then to call the five leaders, constituting the service chiefs to come at number 35 Courtney Avenue – that house which was Zanla security house.
The two of us, me and former president Mugabe, we sat there and through connections I invited General Walls through Ken Flower, who was head of the CIO, to come and discuss. He said, “but what is our security?” This was General Walls and I said :“General, what harm can come to you. Where you are coming there are only two people, it’s me and Mugabe, and Mugabe is requesting you General Walls, Peter Allan, Commissioner-General of the Police, Air Marshall Wessels, Commander of the Air Force, General Mclean, commander of the army and then Ken Flowers of security (to make five of them). You come, the Prime Minister-elect would like to discuss with you.”
They said they will come back to me and after some time they called me and said, “Yes, we are agreed, where are you?”
I gave them the address but told them just come in one car. They said, “That’s dangerous, no we don’t want,” but we said, “We have nobody at the place; it’s just ourselves.” But in the end they agreed.
So General Walls, General Mclean, Commissioner of Police Peter Allan, Air Force Commander Air Marshall Wessels and then Ken Flower. They arrived and I went to receive them at the gate. But of course we had also taken our precautions, so we allowed them to come in. Then the two of us met these five. Then the President Mugabe says, “General Walls, I have won these elections and I will be inaugurated as Prime Minister but there is ZIPRA, there is ZANLA, these are guerrilla armies.
“You command a conventional army, from the day of my inauguration it becomes the army of the new Zimbabwe, not Rhodesia, not anymore. So I cannot have Dumiso, Masuku or Rex as commander of this new army, I request you to be the first Commander of Independent Zimbabwe.”
Q: Was it a strategy to tame him?
A: Yes! After my boss, the late president Mugabe, offered General Walls the Commander of the new army, he picked his hat, put it on, stood up after looking at his colleagues, who were also putting their hats on nodding, stood up saluted and said he accepted. Then he (former president Mugabe) did the same to General Mclean, who stood up, saluted. Again he went to the Police Commissioner, Peter Allan. ZANLA, ZIPPRA had no police, we had that kind of police but it was not a conventional police. He looked at his colleagues, stood up saluted and accepted.
He went to the Commander of Air Force, Wessels, and his colleagues and said, “We have no air force; you were bombing us left, right and centre, but there is a new order, we need you.” He (Wessels) stood up and saluted, accepting to serve under the new order.
But when he reached to the last guy, Ken Flower, he said, “Before I accept, I want to confess that we still have parcel bombs which we sent to you, but I also accept and I will now make arrangements to make sure that they are defused.”
Q: How did you react to that?
A: He actually said there was one for me, and before, in Maputo, there was a parcel bomb which killed all of my security guys. He confessed all that. So that’s how they accepted to become the heads of the security architecture of the new Government of Zimbabwe. But then they had become so comfortable. You asked about General Walls. So, General Walls he was very good at wanting to be happy so he was in a boat at Kariba drinking.
I don’t know why he invited a BBC journalist and in that interview he said they had wanted to make a coup not realising that the new Zimbabwe will be more peaceful than Rhodesia, they were very happy.
But by disclosing that they had intended to make a coup, which they had not formally disclosed to us, that alone for a military person is a crime. So I called Dereck Robinson, who was number 2 to Ken Flower, and said, “Have you listened to the BBC bulletin?”, and he said yes.
I said what General Walls had said is a crime. I knew that Dereck Robinson when he left my office, I was Minister of State Security, he will phone General Walls to say the Minister of Security is concerned and you are likely to be arrested. So I allowed him time, I knew he was going to phone him; when he phoned him, we arranged a plane to fly him out of the country from Kariba and that was the end of General Walls.
Q: Given this background that you have given us, what challenges then did you encounter in integrating the Rhodesian Front, ZANLA and ZIPRA forces?
A: Well, after that, General Walls was the chairman of the Joint Command. I was then appointed chairman of the Joint Command to integrate the three armies. We encountered challenges but at the end of the day, all of us had the focus to create a new military architecture. So with that goodwill we were able to surmount the challenges which we were facing as ZIPRA, as ZANLA and the Rhodesian Army. We were integrating these three into one. Of course there was an element of young officers from the Rhodesian Army who did not want to integrate and we discussed with my boss and we agreed that we give them some days. I think it was about 10 or 12 days, to say that those who wanted should leave the country and we will not arrest them.
You can take all the arms you want and they did. They left for South Africa. For another day, I can explain what happened.
Q: So comparing that to present-day Zimbabwe, where you are trying to bring unity, political forces together. How do you compare the two phases, where you had those challenges trying to integrate the armies together? Now today you are trying to unite people to speak with one voice where there is one Zimbabwe for every Zimbabwean and you seem to be getting resistance which you intimated on earlier on. How do you compare the two phases?
A: Well, the first challenge, everybody was enthusiastic about the creation of a new independent state borne out of an armed struggle, a very painful armed struggle. So we all had the spirit to give and take at that stage.
Currently, it is not the same issue, we have the patriotic Zimbabweans who love Zimbabwe; whether Zimbabwe is in problems or in good standing, they are Zimbabweans.
In winter they are Zimbabweans, in summer they are Zimbabweans, at night they are Zimbabweans. They wish to determine the destination of their country together.
But we have others who do not want that, who prefer to be tools of foreign powers to run Zimbabwe, to determine the destiny of Zimbabwe.
So these conditions are totally different from the conditions which prevailed in 1980.
However, under the Second Republic, we have done everything possible to embrace all groups in Zimbabwe, whether they are patriotic or non-patriotic, because we are all Zimbabweans. We say let us work together, this is why immediately after the 2018 elections I created the POLAD platform, which has never happened before, where all political parties, where the 23 political parties come together and discuss issues affecting Zimbabwe so that together we can share our vision and together shape our destiny.
The majority of these political parties have come together and we are moving on, except the most unpatriotic who actually went to America to plead with the last President Trump to continue to impose sanctions on Zimbabwe.
Those are the elements that are still outside but the door is still open for those who are still patriotic about their country, who wish good for their country, for their people.
The door is open; the platform is there.
Whether they could church people, political organisations — whatever the association — as long as you are Zimbabwean, there is a platform for us together to move forward towards and share the destiny and vision for our country.
Q: Your Excellency, Sir, lets continue the conversation on unity. Unlike your predecessor, you have openly spoken and discussed the issue of Gukurahundi, what do you wish to realise from that in view of the drive you are putting forward in trying to get Zimbabweans united?
A: I think you should realise that in my view, it is not useful to avoid discussing an issue which affects us as a nation. Good or bad, let us all discuss. In the discussion, we can identify issues which are correct and issues that are wrong so that in future the issues that are not good for our country are avoided, and the issues that are good for our country are promoted. So with that belief I think it is necessary that as a nation we should not avoid discussing challenges which face us as a people.
Q: So this one particular challenge about Gukurahundi, which to many people, particularly in the Matabeleland region, is still a sore point, are you happy with the progress that you have made so far. I know we have seen you having cordial meetings with chiefs from the province, but generally are you happy with the progress, and what is your next step?
A: The issue is not for me being happy, the issue is that everybody affected has the opportunity to come to the platform and discuss issues and together we interrogate the way forward to deal with the issue so it doesn’t happen again. So this is where I think we are following a proper and cooperative way that will unite the people of Zimbabwe.
Q: We would want to take you now to the issues economic. I know you are passionate about that and you declared right from the first day that you want to get more energy expended on the economy. When you came into power in November 2017, there were many challenges which you inherited and you put in place policies which you admitted yourself that will be very painful steps, but we would need to endure those to enjoy the fruit of tomorrow. What would you say today, have you achieved so far that which you intended? I know in some quarters people were not too happy with the pain. They did not see the tomorrow that you visibly saw?
A: I will give a small example before I answer you. Some day in about August 1964 we arrived at a place in Devule Range, somewhere I think its Bikita area now. There was a beer party. We left our things in the bush. When we arrived, we were received by people at the beer party. And as we were discussing with the people at the beer party, pandari, then a small plane came passing, flying. Then one gentleman stood up and said, “aaah imwimwi murikuda kusunungura nyika ino, honai varungu vanofambira mudenga, imi kana kugadzira tsono hamugone. Moda kutonga nyiko ino?
So we still were able and determined without knowing how to manufacture a needle to liberate this country. Now going back to your question in specific terms, you are asking that when the Second Republic came there were so many challenges.
It was necessary that if we had to bring about prosperity certain things had to be done, painful or not painful, and it was necessary for us to introduce measures that were very painful that made us unpopular but we knew that the fruits of that exercise will bring about prosperity and recovery of our economy.
Q: So would you say a lot of ground has been covered regarding that?
A: Yes, for instance, when we came into office we had been going through very drastic challenges in energy, where we would go without electricity. Load-shedding was the order of the day. We had to address that. The question of fuel, we had queues here left and right, long queues at the early part of the Second Administration. But we had to impose and create conditions that were very difficult in order to reach where we are today by introducing policies which bring about resolution to those challenges. Our shelves, at one time they were empty, empty shelves, so we had to find out what to do in order for our people to have food, basic needs of life, and to do that again it was painful.
We had no currency, our currency had collapsed years back, and there is no country that can develop and grow its economy on the basis of another country’s currency.
But to move away from that and create our own currency, it was very painful.
So we had to have measures to deal with the financial services sector in order to reach where we wanted to reach, but to do so we had to fight financial sharks in the financial services sector.
And I am happy to say up to today, perhaps we are about 40 to 50 percent in fighting those financial sharks. Fortunately, we are now wiser than we were at the beginning, we now know whom we are fighting and who is behind them. This helps us bring the correct instruments to deal with the financial services sector for it to serve this country and not to serve foreign interests. So all these things, as you do them there is suffering, but there is light at the end of the day and I believe people are beginning to see things changing and the currency is stabilising, but the fight is still on.
Q: You recently said Zimbabwe has passed its worst, are all these highlights, these positives you speak about, part of what gives you the confidence to say we are past our worst?
A: Not only these, there are many things which a family would want, right. First thing is food, there is really nothing we can do in regards to food, we must address the issue that a Zimbabwean must have at least three meals a day. But if there is drought, they cannot have three meals, and the country is under sanctions so you cannot be able to support the population on the basis of imports only.
So how do we address the issue of continuous droughts? This is why we brought about the policies of irrigation and the construction of dams. Fortunately, we already have numerous water bodies in the country. So what we had to do was to make sure we promote irrigation in this country. We made an analysis to say if we have X amount of hectarage under irrigation, whether there is drought or no drought, we shall have enough food in the country and we are on that process.
I believe that in three years, according to our plans, we should reach that level where we have enough hectarage under irrigation which guarantees us food. Secondly, fortunately, this time around the Lord has been merciful to this country, we had good rains and we know that we are going to have a bumper harvest this year.
- Pfumvudza has also been a game-changer in the entire matrix?
A: Pfumvudza was not entirely new, it was there. But when we made an analysis of Pfumvudza, we realised that here was a tool lying, which we were not using and should be using to ameliorate the food supply to our people. The former Minister of Agriculture (May his soul rest in peace) Perrance Shiri, we discussed and agreed that it was necessary to propagate and implement the Pfumvudza concept because that one, we are addressing the food question at the household level. We have got 1,8 million households in the country and if each household does produce for itself, we are almost 50 percent solving the issue and the problem of food hunger in the country.
And fortunately, when we implemented the Pfumvudza concept, the Grace of the Lord gave us good rains and we expect a bumper harvest. And that concept will continue, actually the way it is planned is such that the first plot must feed your family, the second plot is surplus. And we can do it.
In the past we thought that it is still necessary that for agriculture you need empowerment. So we have now been able to analyse it. We have the first category of farmer, is the mechanised farmer and we must empower him to use the land to maximum productivity per hectare. The second farmer is the one who uses a donkey or cattle for power, he must be supported also to do so. The third category farmer is the one who says we don’t have cattle, donkey or a tractor, so they are desperate – so this is where the Pfumvudza comes in. So as long as you have feet, hands and your eyes, you can be a productive, prosperous farmer through Pfumvudza. Of the three categories of farmers, we have a solution for each. So going forward with regards to the issue of agriculture and food security in the county, we are on the correct path.
Q: Still on the growth path, we project that we intend to go on a 7,4 percent growth. In view of Covid-19, in view of the third wave that is anticipated to be coming and also in view of our Vision 2030, are we still on track, is it still achievable?
A: I am sure you are aware that the last season we were minus seven or minus eight in terms of GDP growth. But if you now go to plus seven it means the economy has grown by 14 percent. However, that figure remains constant if other things remain the same. But it is not possible for things to remain the same. So the projections are done taking into cognisance the current situation and the possible issues that may affect such projections, and we felt that it was achievable. But now with the pandemic that has affected economic activities and so on, we cannot again stick to that, we have to revise. At one time we thought the first wave of the pandemic had ended, but now the second, there is projection of the third and fourth and so on.
Things will constantly change depending on the concrete facts on the ground, but at the end of the day, we are very sure that the economy has rebound because we have corrected the fundamental issues that affect the economy – the micro-economic issues, most of them are now correct and we continue to address them and making sure that as we move on, we carry everybody. For an economy to move, we don’t need political governance only, but we need everybody on board to share and contribute and become the stakeholders of the vision.
Q: We have a few, Your Excellency, whose hands are not on deck, those that are involved in corruption. Right from day one when you assumed office, you spoke passionately against corruption and you even termed it a war and indeed it is a war. In this war there have been battles. Have you won most of these battles?
A: No, what I can say is we must fight corruption and this should not be a Mnangagwa crusade, this should not be a Government crusade. It must be a crusade for the entire society of Zimbabwe, all sub-sectors of our society, all sub-sectors of our economy must commit to fighting corruption. We as Government must put up legislation which assists in fighting corruption.
To date, I see that we have done a lot in identifying corruption and taking action but the entire system, the full chain is not through. You still have aspects of that fight, which still drag their feet.
It is necessary for everybody in the public sector and private sector to commit themselves to fighting corruption, those in churches and family level should commit to fight corruption because corruption does not happen where there are no people.
It is the people who commit corruption and generally the two who commit corruption are not the same people who would talk about it unless they became dissatisfied then one squeals. We need to put a spirit among our people, this why I always say, let us be hardworking, honest, hardworking people. Be rewarded on the basis of honest, hard work. We believe that if that can be embraced by our people, we will be on the correct track to achieve a society free of this cancer, a scourge of corruption.
Q: Your Excellency, whilst you are still on corruption, you have shown by firing those ministers that had shown that they are corrupt or have gone against the ethos or the expectations that you have. But when it comes to local authorities, there seems to be a soft touch from your administration to deal decisively with them. Is there an issue of where your administration feels they don’t want to be criticised for attacking them because they are part of the opposition or what?
A: Corruption has no affiliation. I act because I am acting with the people’s central Government under my authority.
I think you are aware that Government has several tiers of authority.
We have the central Government and local authorities, whether they be municipal authorities or local district councils, and they are governed by different legislations.
I cannot stand up and say I fire mayor so and so or councillor so and so because they are governed by different . . .
But as they commit crimes, the system which fights corruption should deal with them.
For instance, Harare City Council, I think one-third of the councillors and the people there are under investigation.
Some have been brought to court and the process is ongoing.
We will fight corruption wherever it is, it does not matter one belongs to the opposition party or whatever, corruption is corruption.
And I believe that I would wish to see the other political parties also speaking against corruption with the same vigour as we do.
Q: Most urban areas suffer from water shortages, we see people sleeping in queues overnight and having marshals to get water for them. That largely, in our view, is a result of that corruption. What are you doing to ensure the ordinary man is cushioned against that?
A: I think you realise that the municipalities have a role, they are set up to deal with service delivery for the community which they lead — it can be rural district council or urban council, like the Harare council.
They have the duty to provide services to the people.
But because we have seen that they have failed, this is why under the Second Republic we have instituted now an inter-ministerial task force headed by the Vice President to deal… overriding the authority of these councils so that we can provide our people with the services which these authorities have failed to provide.
So, as central Government we are intervening, using central Government resources to do so.
This is now, you realise, the question of housing, question of correcting wetlands, question of clean water.
I think you have seen on TV now where new equipment is being installed; that equipment is not being bought by municipal councils, no. It is the central Government that is intervening using our resources at central Government level to make sure there are services.
Very soon I shall be commissioning two dams, the Causeway Dam and another dam, which again, in the process, will bring water to Harare.
All that is being done by central Government because our people come first.
In the process also, we are saying to the people they should bring to account the councillors they elect, they can’t continue electing councillors who do not deliver.
When councillors are elected, they are supposed to deliver services to the people who elect them and not bring misery.
Q: Mr President, the issue of devolution has been put into action under this particular administration. Where are we? And is it moving towards the direction that you envisioned?
A: Indeed, the concept of devolution under the Second Republic, we view it as a proper instrument that addresses challenges at community level, at the lowest level of our communities where the people at that level know what they want best, they know their priorities.
So, we in central Government would not know what the people in a ward in Chipinge would want as a priority, the people in Plumtree what they would want as a priority or the people in Kanyemba what they would want as a priority for them.
All these areas they have different priorities and these can only be addressed by putting resources at that level.
This is what devolution is doing.
The first step we did was to allocate US$300 million at the time, and we then put $3 billion.
Now I am not sure of the figures, but we are putting billions and billions of dollars to each province, which then is reallocated to each single district in the province.
In that district, they have wards, each ward will determine what they want at that level, some would want a clinic, some would want dip-tank, some would want a classroom, some would want a footbridge; whatever.
These are the basic priorities they want at the level.
Some of the rural district councils, have now been able to purchase equipment and maintain roads at their level at their community, which is good.
Instead of depending on us at national level to know that there is a bridge that has been washed away, now with devolution, they are able to repair a road, to repair a bridge at that level.
But this does not mean central Government ceases to have responsibility, we continue to exercise our responsibility but we give opportunity to local authorities and communities to address the things that affect them most at that level.
Q: Your Excellency, allow me to take you back to the macro-economy, we have seen exports growing particularly in the past year where we earned more than US$4 billion, but unfortunately we have seen the list of imports growing and yet on the other hand, the production capacity in industry has been rising from a low of 15 percent to now above 35. How then do we marry the two where exports seem rising but exports are trying to go but they cannot match the demand for imports? Where are these imports coming from?
A: What we should understand is that, either a country becomes a market by other economic jurisdictions or you choose yourselves not only to be a market but to be a productive economic jurisdiction which imports and goes to the market of other economic jurisdictions.
Now, I remember in 2018, when we went to the Zimbabwe International Trade Fair and as we went around NUST, Chinhoyi University, University of Zimbabwe and so on students there displayed, exhibited various inventions which they did, but it died there.
So I then decided . . . I then called . . .
I did two things: one, it was necessary to create or craft a policy where we must harness the talent of our boys and girls.
Two, we must discuss with the captains of industry so that we know what they expect Government to do for them to thrive.
On the same platform, we must discuss with the captains of industry, so they know what Government expects of them to do.
Then, we went to the academia, the institutions of higher learning and said the institutions of higher learning should have products which produce goods and services.
And to do so, I introduced innovation hubs.
We first selected six universities where Government put money to build innovation hubs, but now all State universities have innovation hubs.
At these innovation hubs, we get a list of all the imports, the things that we import into the country over 2000 items.
You list them there and said to the boys and girls you are talented, you are Zimbabweans, at innovation hubs look at this list, we are importing these things, can you apply yourselves so that some of these items can be produced locally.
And it is creating wonders. Currently, universities are competing, some are registering up to 70 patents a year and reducing the number of products we import as a result of this.
The innovation hub is where you bring your idea into reality.
But once that is done you now need to commercialise your product.
So each university now we have given them ground, where they create industrial parks, where we again finance to produce the product at a commercial level and then once that happens it can go into the market.
And I am enjoying that, the country is enjoying that and students are so happy.
Just yesterday (April 9), I commissioned the Management Institute in Msasa, which ought to have been funded by Zimdef for years, Zimdef was there but it had nothing to show.
But in two years, go and see what we have there.
State-of-the-art institute where students now can exercise their talents with no support from anywhere, all domestic resources.
You don’t know how much our people, Zimbabweans, are talented if you give them the opportunity to excel and exercise their talent. This is what we are doing and as a result, you can now see… because now the private sector tells institutions of higher learning products what they need, the products they need from universities, and the universities are restructuring their curriculum to produce products which fit industry.
Q: Your Excellency, you have given us a very impressive list of what Government is doing to ensure that production rises. Is private sector doing enough?
A: Not everybody. This is what I was saying, as we move forward we do not want to leave anybody behind.
Not everybody can embrace good ideas at the same time, but we will continue to preach.
I am saying this because I now see the positive response from the private sector.
I created what we call the Presidential Advisory Council, where the big guns in industry and commerce come and discuss with me as President and my colleagues, and discuss what we should do to modernise, to mechanise and industrialise our economy. We have the responsibility to create an economic environment where such things can thrive and we discuss, and this is what is happening.
Q: Your Excellency, you have said you do not want to leave anybody behind and I think at a period when we are celebrating our Independence, the viewers back home would want to know in a climate which it is so polarised politically, they want to understand there is one man called Nelson Chamisa who is standing aloof, what are the preconditions or what conditions are there for you to create a working relationship with them?
A: Well, you have mentioned this one Zimbabwean, you forget that him and his Vice President went to America to ask for sanctions to continue to be imposed on Zimbabwe.
So, before they cut that umbilical cord with the Americans it is difficult to be proper Zimbabweans.
We have created a platform where every genuine patriotic Zimbabwean can come and participate and use their talents and contribute to the global national vision.
It is not a Mnangagwa vision, it is not a ZANU PF; it is a national vision for our people.
In a democracy, we debate issues and the best debate on the day takes the day.
That is what we must do and we have created a platform so that nobody is left behind.
For instance, it does not follow that everybody should be saying yes, yes, yes to everything I say. I would not want yes-people around me, I want people who argue with me and I argue with them.
At the end of the day, I know that those who are arguing against me have the interests of the country at heart and those who argue for also have the interests of the country at heart and the best argument takes the day.
Q: As we were growing, an errant child would get a bit of sjambok to whip them into line either physically or through the counselling. What are we doing with this child of ours, Nelson?
A: I still believe that Mr Chamisa is a young Zimbabwean and he still has that opportunity to positively contribute to his country — if he puts aside the vision for violent demonstrations against his country, being destructive, destroying property and in the process people die.
If he decides on that he shall have constructive debate, being a constructive opposition in the country; if he will embrace constructive criticism, constructive debate, and constructive contribution to the country.
But if you are going to say, I will destroy in order to rise on destruction to power, then that is not viable.
Q: The defections that have been happening in MDC-A, people coming over to ZANU PF, does it speak to that childish behaviour that you speak about?
A: Well, I think that as you go on our people, our Zimbabwean people are very discerning.
They realise that the future lies with those who preach harmony, peace and unity, and not those who preach demonstrations.
There is no country that is built on violence and demonstrations.
Countries are built on unity, harmony, peace and love.
This is why what is happening.
Q: Are you confident the party will win and carry the day?
A: If a leader of a political party goes into an election with the hope of not winning, then that person should not be a leader of a party.
I am extremely confident based on the work that we are doing and the positive reception that we receive from the public, and the resolutions which we are achieving both in terms of resolving hunger in the country, in terms of providing energy, in terms of providing good roads, in terms of providing fuel, in terms of increasing and modernising our health sector.
I think with all these things which continue to improve, the people will feel that they must give us a chance to do more.
Q: So, your Vision 2030, was it prophetic or was it the confidence that you had that you will still be in power?
A: It was born in the act of suffering and the wish to fight the challenges.
Q: Your Excellency, let me take you back to the bilateral dispute between Harare and London, which was a result of the land reform programme. Where are we now in terms of the compensation of affected the farmers, and how is the relationship, is there a possibility we heard recently of the talk Zimbabwe re-joining the Commonwealth, where is the progress now?
A: Let me assure you that Zimbabwe has never imposed sanctions on Britain or the United Kingdom.
It is the United Kingdom that imposed sanctions on us.
Their first reason was the land reform; it is now 20 years ago.
We have told them that the land reform will never, never change; it is irrevocable. We have corrected the imbalance which they themselves created. It is them that should adjust to reality, not us to adjust.
It is very clear the ball is in their court.
We as Zimbabweans, whether the British want us or do not want us, is not an issue.
We are happy we are in control of our land and we say to the British, recognise that we are the masters of our land.
Let us have relations which will contribute to good relations between the British people and the Zimbabwean people.
It is good when we work together, but if they choose to make us enemies, it is not our choice but theirs.
Those that need to change are them, not us.
Q: It would also be unjust for this conversation to end without looking at the security issues that are happening within the region, particularly in Mozambique. You were at a meeting where you sat as Heads of State and discussed measures. What is your weigh-in particular as Zimbabwe is celebrating Independence and there are insurgencies in Mozambique?
A: One: Mozambique is a sister republic to Zimbabwe; what affects Mozambique affects Zimbabwe.
Two: Mozambique is a member of SADC and whatever affect one single member of SADC adversely affects all members of SADC.
So when we met first as the Troika, we looked at the events happening in Cabo Delgado and we came to the conclusion there was real need for a robust response to the terrorists in Cabo Delgado by SADC.
So, we agreed that SADC as a region and as a bloc should assist Mozambique in repulsing the terrorists that have attacked Cabo Delgado and Palma recently.
And then we met as a Double Troika and where we as Troika reported our position and I am happy to say the Double Troika also adopted that position, which I believe when it is submitted to the summit, the summit will likely adopt that position that SADC as a bloc should contribute towards assisting Mozambique to deal with that problem.
Q: Your Excellency, at this moment allow us to delve into your private life a bit, what is your favourite meal?
A: Ahhh Mukaka wakakora. Ndiwo wandofarira.
Q: Favourite music?
A: Ndinofarira gospel music.
Q: Do you have any special . . . ?
A: As the President, I will not say which one just in case they won’t vote for me. The issue is I like gospel music.
Q: We also understand that you are a very avid football supporter. You are associated with FC Platinum by virtue of your origin but also we saw you at Highlanders getting a jersey, we saw with Dynamos getting a jersey. Do you have any favourite football team that you have either locally or internationally?
A: Earlier on when I was Minister, of course I am the godfather of FC Platinum. I was happy with that.
But when I became President it was not easy to belong to one football club. Now all football clubs are my clubs.
Q: Your Excellency, what do you do in your spare time, if you have any such, when you want to relax and unwind? We hear you are a hardworker. You are at the office ahead of most people. So when you say I am relaxing and unwinding what will you be doing?
A: Well, I am happy that my commitment to work has managed to influence those around me like George Charamba. They now come very early to work.
I work six days a week, Monday to Saturday, then on Sunday I go to my farm where I do my farming work; that is my week , it does not change.
On Sunday, I leave at 6.30 am to go to the farm, then I work up to 4.30 pm, then I leave and come back.
Q: So do your vazukuru have play time with sekuru?
A: I wish they could. They complain, but it is very difficult. I hope that I will come down the line and have time with my grandchildren.
Q: If you would show the country the other personal side of you. How would you want it done would you want it by the farm?
A: I am not so sure what you have in mind. The public knows I am their President. And the time really when family work is when I am at the farm. My family has been farming for ages.
I was telling my colleagues that I first drove my first tractor 1959 after my father bought his first tractor.
From that time, we have just been farming and I have been addicted to farming.
Q: Thank you very much. I think we have come to the end of our Independence conversation with Excellency Cde ED Mnangagwa where he has spoken on various issues on Independence to do with the economy, devolution, the security within the region and the land issue, political climate in Zimbabwe. Mr President, I want to thank you very much for sparing your time to be with us today to have this particular conversation with us. It is quite a privilege that as women we had this opportunity to sit down with you and have this particular conversation without us feeling inferior in any way because of the efforts that you have advanced to empower women. Thank you, Your Excellency.
A: Thank you very much. I am fully aware about the rise of women in this country. Some of my colleagues are getting afraid.
